tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post5997007522032812371..comments2024-03-28T09:08:50.733+00:00Comments on Law and Lawyers: Explaining our Law and Legal System ... No.5 ... MagistratesObiterJhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04544226917595022902noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-4238991251994342912011-07-24T10:19:12.462+01:002011-07-24T10:19:12.462+01:00@ Portia - thank you for the comments.
I agree ...@ Portia - thank you for the comments. <br /><br />I agree with your view of HMCTS. Most of the managers (with some exceptions) which I have met are utterly charmless bureaucrats and most of them have appeared since the Courts Act 2003 got rid of the old Magistrates' Courts Committees.<br /><br />The Salford Magistrates' Court situation is interesting in that the old Greater Manchester Magistrates' Courts Committee came up with a plan to close it and also to close the court at Bolton. A new court building at Eccles was proposed. This plan was knocked back when the many Labour MPs in the area tackled the Labour government about it. After that came HMCTS and little was spent trying to make the Salford facilities better. Thus, it became a prime candidate for Kenneth Clarke's axe. What will happen to the old building? Nobody knows. I suspect that it will be closed, allowed to deteriorate and become another eyesore in an area already noted for extensive dereliction. The new Manchester and Salford LJA will have all of its work concentrated into the single court in the Manchester City centre. That building was constructed under PFI and is already inadequate for purpose.<br /><br />Unpaid fines - according to the Law Society Gazette - some £600m is owed. This failure to get in the money is very much down to HMCTS who, under "collection orders" have powers to act. <a href="http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/anger-over-600m-unpaid-court-fines" rel="nofollow">Anger over £600m in unpaid fines</a>.ObiterJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04544226917595022902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-7264804940261098422011-07-23T17:59:07.351+01:002011-07-23T17:59:07.351+01:00Excellent piece on the role of magistrates. I also...Excellent piece on the role of magistrates. I also agree with <br />Call it Justice's comment that the executive in the shape of HMCTS is an over-powerful bureaucracy. Its function should be to facilitate the administration of local (as opposed to the current mantra of 'accessible') justice and not behave like a property company. My court was shut last month to save money. No money will be saved, however, as the plan is to sell it and use the proceeds to build five additional courtrooms in another courthouse in another borough in our new, exceedingly large LJA. Asset stripping one borough, in effect, for the benefit of another. <br /><br />It was a bad day for local justice when HMCS was created to take over our courthouses. Before then, they were maintained by local councils and managed economically by the unpaid Magistrates' Courts Committees. Many court houses exemplify through their architecture the dignity of the law and civic pride, as your picture of Salford MC demonstrates. HMCS has never been able to maintain them as the cost of its own bureaucracy comes first and it has subcontracted many of its responsibilities to outside organisations such as SERCO, MITIE and EC Harris. <br /><br />Another bad day for justice was when all our legal advisers and court staff become civil servants - employees of HMCTS. How good is that for an independent judiciary? How can they challenge, for instance, the stupidity of Activity Based Costing currently being applied to the jobs of all court staff? Why has HMCS allowed £1.5 billion of unpaid fines to accumulate since it took over fine collection? <br /><br />And finally, yes DJs are wasted on the daily routine work of mags courts. Their salaries and pensions alone make their employment in this sphere a waste of public money and does not make adequate use of their training and experience. Whilst some mags do claim loss of earnings, many mags make no claims at all.Portianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-41804593458581095872011-07-10T23:57:46.498+01:002011-07-10T23:57:46.498+01:00my (probably less than) two pennorth:
the 're...my (probably less than) two pennorth:<br /><br />the 'reasons' i have from the mags are depressingly formulaic. <br />i prefer to be in front of a dj because they are usually quicker!<br />i had a LA overstep the mark the other day (imho at any rate) - she made what i considered a judgment of fact. i was quite short with her. don't know if it helped. however when they do this i think it essential that other parts of the machinery tell them, so the mags are left in no doubt (assuming that they were!). i think one of the great dangers to the system is when LAs get too close to prosecutors with whom they are in court very frequently.<br /><br />overall i find the mags a huge frustration - all takes too long and with far too many unnecessary hearings, lack of consistency (city of westminster is unlike any other mags i have appeared in) and ineffective trials. a system at breaking point and none of it the fault of those who sit without reward to try and 'do their bit', some of whom are seriously skilled and possessed of excellent judgment.simply wonderedhttp://www.simplywondered.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-64622949373911358002011-06-23T09:37:16.263+01:002011-06-23T09:37:16.263+01:00@mcmrjp - Anonymous has now sent another comment w...@mcmrjp - Anonymous has now sent another comment which perhaps amplifies on his earlier one.<br /><br />I'm not so sure they boss the DJs around? The staff seem to run around the DJs to some tune.<br /><br />LAs are entitled to come to the retiring room to, for example, assist with the law and, as Anonymous has pointed out, reasons. In the "good old days" (?) there was an adage that the decision might be right but the reasons wrong! Since the HRA 1998 there has been more emphasis on reasons but they do not have to be more than a statement of the key reasons why the bench has reached a decision. Quite short and to the point. There is no question that magistrates should even attempt to emulate the judges (High Court and upwards).ObiterJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04544226917595022902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-39049202188719380622011-06-22T20:13:14.873+01:002011-06-22T20:13:14.873+01:00Excellent posting Obiter very succinct and informa...Excellent posting Obiter very succinct and informative. In regard to Anonymous posting I don't know where he gets that idea! Indeed I once told an LA to leave the retiral room because they came into early and didn't seem to want to leave. I find that HMCTS have very little respect for Magistrates on the whole, they don't understand us and can't boss us around like DJs.mcmrjpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-25347311044454776982011-06-22T19:32:52.872+01:002011-06-22T19:32:52.872+01:00Legal advisors are there to advise on law, practic...Legal advisors are there to advise on law, practice and procedure but also (since HRA) on reasons. I am a chairman of many years experience, I have found that advisors know the competence and knowledge levels of the chairmen they sit with (some new chairmen just need a bit of time to get confident - some old chairmen are just not very good, they are gradually being weeded out). The legal advisor will vary the amount, detail, and forcefulness of their advice to the competence of the chairman. But I have never found, or heard of, a case where an advisor has overstepped the mark.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-76714295486329322972011-06-22T17:17:14.689+01:002011-06-22T17:17:14.689+01:00The role of the justices' clerk (or legal advi...The role of the justices' clerk (or legal adviser) is to advise the magistrates on law, practice and procedure. These areas often overlap so advice is required on issues of mixed fact and law.<br /><br />The Consolidated Criminal Practice Direction (Part V) gives detailed explanation of the role of the legal adviser including the method in which advice should be tendered.<br /><br />The Practice Direction is thought to have addressed the impact of the Human Rights Act 1998 on communications between magistrates and advisers. (Pre HRA 1998 case law needs to be read cautiously).<br /><br />The rule now is that the adviser must explain in open court any advice given so that parties have the opportunity to comment on it.<br /><br />See Archbold - <a href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Archbold-Magistrates-Courts-Criminal-Practice/dp/041404309X" rel="nofollow">Magistrates' Courts Criminal Practice</a>.ObiterJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04544226917595022902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-72514987739983640912011-06-21T20:41:01.700+01:002011-06-21T20:41:01.700+01:00great post guys.. i love to visit your blog!great post guys.. i love to visit your blog!immigration lawyershttp://greenfieldssolicitors.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-45604595729339466542011-06-21T20:40:57.943+01:002011-06-21T20:40:57.943+01:00Legal Advisers certainly should not be making the ...Legal Advisers certainly should not be making the decisions and it is written in their practice directions that they must not play any part in the finding of fact. <br />If they are making decisions that should be made by the bench then it is the court chairman who is at fault.<br />www.callitjustice.netcall it justicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09863682494068974977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-10756856653585696952011-06-21T16:51:57.851+01:002011-06-21T16:51:57.851+01:00A helpful and concise summary.
Although there was...A helpful and concise summary.<br /><br />Although there was no mention that Magistrates don't really make the decisions.<br />Legal Advisors Do.<br /><br />At least that's my experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-13731350764886939602011-06-21T11:33:28.594+01:002011-06-21T11:33:28.594+01:00@ Justice of the Peace - Thank you.@ Justice of the Peace - Thank you.ObiterJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04544226917595022902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-4905176491421540062011-06-21T11:18:02.351+01:002011-06-21T11:18:02.351+01:00@Callitjustice - thank you for the comment. I am ...@Callitjustice - thank you for the comment. I am pleased that you amplified on the role of HMCTS. I considered doing this but, in the interests of not making the post excessively long, did not do so. HMCTS is basically responsible for the administration and the Justices' Clerk (and associate clerks) for the law. However, administration can impact on what it is actually possible for the justices to achieve. As just one example, the removal of a "cash office" at a Magistrates courts will impact on the payment of fines which are, strictly speaking, due as soon as imposed. Regrettably, the actual magistrates are being ignored in all of this by administrators.<br /><br />Personally, I agree re District Judges - they are absurdly expensive for this level of justice. To a point, one can see the need for a small cadre of professional judges who could move from court to court as needed for particularly lengthy or tricky vases. Such cases do arise in the Magistrates' Courts but are usually in the more unusual areas of law such as environmental offences. Such a cadre ought to be very small - perhaps no more than 20 nationally. As things stand, there are some Magistrates' Courts now with up to 6 DJs attached and they have always to be found work to do in court to justify their fees. This is sidelining the justices.<br /><br />Many JPs consider that the term "lay" is somewhat insulting. Personally, I do think that it somehow emphasizes the difference between them and a DJ(MC) and encourages the view that the latter are definitely superior. I recall a colleague once writing to someone about a request for a report which a bench had made. Instead of saying that "X Magistrates' Court" had requested it, he said that it was "requested by a lay bench." This came across as implying that the request was not as valued as it would have been from a judge. Very poor professional practice in my view.<br /><br />Thanks again for your excellent observations.ObiterJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04544226917595022902noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-48384875552169662792011-06-21T11:09:21.060+01:002011-06-21T11:09:21.060+01:00Concise yet comprehensive post; a difficult combin...Concise yet comprehensive post; a difficult combination well accomplished.The Justice of the Peacehttp://thejusticeofthepeace.blog.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6110794854146484721.post-71804788617728702002011-06-21T11:03:14.903+01:002011-06-21T11:03:14.903+01:00A very good article; clear and informative. Magist...A very good article; clear and informative. Magistrates are indeed "a long-established example of the Big Society", recently so kindly invented by the Prime Minister.<br /><br />One of the most concerning challenges to the magistracy is the increasing power and control exercised over it by HMCTS, in contravention of the fundamental and necessary separation of the judiciary from the executive. Their agenda is the gradual erosion of magistrates' authority and the future does look bleak.<br /><br />District Judges are not the answer; one person acting as judge and jury is a seriously weak part of the criminal justice system and absurdly expensive. More jurisdiction and sentencing powers should be given to magistrates, not less.<br /><br />The use of the word 'lay' is unfortunate as it severely underplays their legal knowledge, skills, judgement and commitment. www.callitjustice.netcall it justicehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09863682494068974977noreply@blogger.com